And Sondland's line was he _presumed_ a condition for the meetings, etc. So he had goodwill but was ignorant. Both are carefully chosen positions. But Volker's explanation has a larger wiggle room. As Volker could claim that he did not see or engage any quid-pro-quo, it's only about changing the optics of the Ukraine government. In reality, both *probably* knew what's going on. However, their position can make it hard to pin this on Trump directly. 2/2
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